This is probably something that only certain men will proactively do, but I’m part of a weekly men’s group that meets on Zoom and there are men from around the world in it. It’s been extremely heartening to hear from men willing to talk about their struggles, their relationships with their fathers and mothers, to have a safe space to talk about stuff they almost never discuss with their guy friends. Finding the right group may certainly take some trial and error (some may be too touchy-feely, or poorly facilitated), but it’s worth looking into IMO.
Whoops. I had written a thoughtful response, then accidentally deleted it.
Thanks for reaching out, Steve. I agree it's important for men to have a safe haven to share their thoughts and struggles. It's equally important, I believe, to have an impartial and non-judgmental audience.
This topic is personal to me. I am a father to two young men and grandfather to an 8-year-old boy. I also lost my oldest son three years ago ... I lost him to depression/anxiety and addiction. So this topic is personal.
Couldn’t agree more - everything you said is 100% accurate (though the composition of the group, and trust are a factor)
I was part of a small (5-6) men’s group at my church before the covid killed it.
Now the pastor (since retired) is getting a new one started with friends - since he’s a great musician himself, several other musicians are part of the group - first meeting in a couple of weeks - so looking forward to it!
Great post - the substantive thing I see that can be accomplished soon after a widespread recognition that there is an issue that must be solved that you’ve alluded to. Most of the men I know, that are successful as MEN, can do something else. They can build things, use their hands, fix things, understand how STUFF works, not just human systems. The concept of high school and college level classes in a dedicated industrial setting (not just classrooms), but repair bays, eventually moving to jobsites - plumbing, electricians, carpenters, cement finishers, farming and farm equipment repair, mechanics of all sorts, building and repairing heavy machinery, and doing the same with stuff most people just toss - probably no one wants to work for 45 years repairing televisions and audio gear, but it would be great if some millions of men could do it if needed and be paid for their labor, assisted with downloadable reference material and tool and hand skills. Maybe turn some of those failing or now empty malls and shopping centers into productivity centers for both skilled journeymen and their subsidized apprentices.
Thanks for the thoughtful response, Michael. That's why in the "So what is the Answer?" section I pointed to Richard Reeves' suggestion of a buildout of state- and county-funded vocational schools. We have one near where I live. It is a low-cost, high yield alternative to expensive four-year colleges. They offer many of the vocational fields you suggested ... electrical engineering, auto and body repair, etc. along with computer diagnostics, associates degrees in nursing, etc.
But this requires the acknowledgement of the problem and the political and economic will to take real action.
Yes - I definitely picked up on the message - we have one here as well, my son attended - he’s the apprentice plumber, working while getting his journeyman’s license.
Everyone else in the family went to 4 year institutions, we’ll probably all end up working for the plumber kid someday
Certainly a deep topic so close to Christmas. Personally, I empathize with you, Jim, however this is not what I spend time thinking about. I have no sons, just one daughter.
I think ALL of these flawed men (I am (was) one as well - but obvs not under 35 any more) started learning about life as children. The parents have the responsibility - no the obligation to raise their children better. Better children > better adults.
I love and appreciate the work that you did to show the "Hard Facts". They are eye-opening! Another enjoyable read, Jim!
I know it's not a mainstream issue, Paul. That's why I wrote about it. It actually runs so much deeper. This piece is a super-condensed look at the issue. I could write volumes on the importance of fatherhood alone. I currently mentor two young men (not my own) who are struggling. Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting. Any suggestions on how/where to promote it?
So I would send the link to other Substackers, or leave it in comments of similar newsletters. May have to search for some with larger follower counts. Maybe just post the "Hard Facts" section to "notes", twitter, and reddit, if you have a facebook page, with a link to the article URL.
At the end of the article, ASK for your people to share it. "In the spirit of Christmas giving, please share this article, if you feel it is important enough to your circle of friends. Thank you in advance! Jim." - similar to that as a call to action.
Forward it to some Substack moderators/influencers. (Katie, Hamish, Chris Best, Jasmin,) Check out https://read.substack.com/ > go to the comments and likes, and find some other Substackers to share it to. It's OK if you and they don't subscribe to each other. After reading your post and asking for the share.
It’s probably because of the people I read, follow, and listen to, but I think this topic IS getting more attention. It’s definitely not mainstream, though. It needs to be. It also confirms what I observe in a lot of young men. Another interest I have is how the explosion of girls thinking they’re boys fits into this narrative...
My daughter is at the age where she is beginning to look for someone to marry. The state of young men worries me immensely. If you have a young daughter, this may not be applicable now, but it will be.
Thank you, Kimberly, for your comment. I did not have a daughter, but I can reflect a bit on your daughter's dilemma. And it is indeed a dilemma.
She is looking for a viable relationship, and as I point out a significant segment of potential male partners is broken, thus reducing the overall "pool" of her available matches. It's even more difficult for women over 30, and virtually impossible for single mothers.
I fathered three boys. Two of them successfully made the transformation into responsible adulthood/manhood (with some struggles along the way). One -- my first born -- did not. He was smart and personable, but sorely lacked in coping skills. As a result, he sank into depression/anxiety, and eventually addiction to opiods and psyche drugs. It lasted almost a decade until one morning I found him dead on the floor. He didn't die directly from an overdose, but long-term complications (oversized heart) from addiction. He basically gave up on life. A terrible waste.
But I can see your concerns for your daughter. Before he died, my oldest could never enter or sustain a relationship. His surviving brothers had to struggle mightily before their maturation.
I suppose all I can submit to you is support her in focusing on her own growth, her own value, her own agency. Hopefully she'll find someone who has done the same for himself.
Thanks, Kimberly. Best wishes to you and your daughter.
I failed to thank you for your insight. Please accept my apology.
One thing: This is a condensed look at larger, more sweeping issues. I limit my Substack submissions to under 2,000 words. There's a sweet spot somewhere around there.
Admittedly I haven’t yet watched the YouTube link you provided, but my knee jerk response to, “How do we get men to come out of the basement?“ is: remove all the electronics. Then they won’t have a reason to stay down there.
I am the mother of two adult sons. I have thought about the things you wrote here a great deal. You are right on all accounts, our culture seems to think it's either/or - advocating for male rights means women don't get a fair shake which is not true. It's the age-old case of the pendulum swinging too far. Our school system (at least in Canada) is highly geared toward a style of learning that does not suit many boys. That's just a start as you said in your piece.
Thank you, Donna. This piece really is a condensed look at a highly complex issue -- a set of issues really -- with many substrates. But the gist is this ... it is not a zero sum game. Uplifting one sex does not denegrate the other. The goal is, as Richard Reeves says, human flourishing.
I have two adult sons, too. They are polar opposites in personality, but both are highly successful. They lost their older brother three years ago to depression/anxiety and addiction. That's why creating this piece was so personal. I'm glad it had an impact on you, and appreciate that you've shared your thoughts here.
This is probably something that only certain men will proactively do, but I’m part of a weekly men’s group that meets on Zoom and there are men from around the world in it. It’s been extremely heartening to hear from men willing to talk about their struggles, their relationships with their fathers and mothers, to have a safe space to talk about stuff they almost never discuss with their guy friends. Finding the right group may certainly take some trial and error (some may be too touchy-feely, or poorly facilitated), but it’s worth looking into IMO.
Whoops. I had written a thoughtful response, then accidentally deleted it.
Thanks for reaching out, Steve. I agree it's important for men to have a safe haven to share their thoughts and struggles. It's equally important, I believe, to have an impartial and non-judgmental audience.
This topic is personal to me. I am a father to two young men and grandfather to an 8-year-old boy. I also lost my oldest son three years ago ... I lost him to depression/anxiety and addiction. So this topic is personal.
I welcome you as a new brother, Steve.
Couldn’t agree more - everything you said is 100% accurate (though the composition of the group, and trust are a factor)
I was part of a small (5-6) men’s group at my church before the covid killed it.
Now the pastor (since retired) is getting a new one started with friends - since he’s a great musician himself, several other musicians are part of the group - first meeting in a couple of weeks - so looking forward to it!
Great post - the substantive thing I see that can be accomplished soon after a widespread recognition that there is an issue that must be solved that you’ve alluded to. Most of the men I know, that are successful as MEN, can do something else. They can build things, use their hands, fix things, understand how STUFF works, not just human systems. The concept of high school and college level classes in a dedicated industrial setting (not just classrooms), but repair bays, eventually moving to jobsites - plumbing, electricians, carpenters, cement finishers, farming and farm equipment repair, mechanics of all sorts, building and repairing heavy machinery, and doing the same with stuff most people just toss - probably no one wants to work for 45 years repairing televisions and audio gear, but it would be great if some millions of men could do it if needed and be paid for their labor, assisted with downloadable reference material and tool and hand skills. Maybe turn some of those failing or now empty malls and shopping centers into productivity centers for both skilled journeymen and their subsidized apprentices.
Thanks for the thoughtful response, Michael. That's why in the "So what is the Answer?" section I pointed to Richard Reeves' suggestion of a buildout of state- and county-funded vocational schools. We have one near where I live. It is a low-cost, high yield alternative to expensive four-year colleges. They offer many of the vocational fields you suggested ... electrical engineering, auto and body repair, etc. along with computer diagnostics, associates degrees in nursing, etc.
But this requires the acknowledgement of the problem and the political and economic will to take real action.
Yes - I definitely picked up on the message - we have one here as well, my son attended - he’s the apprentice plumber, working while getting his journeyman’s license.
Everyone else in the family went to 4 year institutions, we’ll probably all end up working for the plumber kid someday
Certainly a deep topic so close to Christmas. Personally, I empathize with you, Jim, however this is not what I spend time thinking about. I have no sons, just one daughter.
I think ALL of these flawed men (I am (was) one as well - but obvs not under 35 any more) started learning about life as children. The parents have the responsibility - no the obligation to raise their children better. Better children > better adults.
I love and appreciate the work that you did to show the "Hard Facts". They are eye-opening! Another enjoyable read, Jim!
I know it's not a mainstream issue, Paul. That's why I wrote about it. It actually runs so much deeper. This piece is a super-condensed look at the issue. I could write volumes on the importance of fatherhood alone. I currently mentor two young men (not my own) who are struggling. Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting. Any suggestions on how/where to promote it?
So I would send the link to other Substackers, or leave it in comments of similar newsletters. May have to search for some with larger follower counts. Maybe just post the "Hard Facts" section to "notes", twitter, and reddit, if you have a facebook page, with a link to the article URL.
At the end of the article, ASK for your people to share it. "In the spirit of Christmas giving, please share this article, if you feel it is important enough to your circle of friends. Thank you in advance! Jim." - similar to that as a call to action.
Forward it to some Substack moderators/influencers. (Katie, Hamish, Chris Best, Jasmin,) Check out https://read.substack.com/ > go to the comments and likes, and find some other Substackers to share it to. It's OK if you and they don't subscribe to each other. After reading your post and asking for the share.
Other places to share your newsletter: https://pau1.substack.com/p/stackhacks-get-more-readers-all-4
It’s probably because of the people I read, follow, and listen to, but I think this topic IS getting more attention. It’s definitely not mainstream, though. It needs to be. It also confirms what I observe in a lot of young men. Another interest I have is how the explosion of girls thinking they’re boys fits into this narrative...
My daughter is at the age where she is beginning to look for someone to marry. The state of young men worries me immensely. If you have a young daughter, this may not be applicable now, but it will be.
Thank you, Kimberly, for your comment. I did not have a daughter, but I can reflect a bit on your daughter's dilemma. And it is indeed a dilemma.
She is looking for a viable relationship, and as I point out a significant segment of potential male partners is broken, thus reducing the overall "pool" of her available matches. It's even more difficult for women over 30, and virtually impossible for single mothers.
I fathered three boys. Two of them successfully made the transformation into responsible adulthood/manhood (with some struggles along the way). One -- my first born -- did not. He was smart and personable, but sorely lacked in coping skills. As a result, he sank into depression/anxiety, and eventually addiction to opiods and psyche drugs. It lasted almost a decade until one morning I found him dead on the floor. He didn't die directly from an overdose, but long-term complications (oversized heart) from addiction. He basically gave up on life. A terrible waste.
But I can see your concerns for your daughter. Before he died, my oldest could never enter or sustain a relationship. His surviving brothers had to struggle mightily before their maturation.
I suppose all I can submit to you is support her in focusing on her own growth, her own value, her own agency. Hopefully she'll find someone who has done the same for himself.
Thanks, Kimberly. Best wishes to you and your daughter.
Jim,
Thank you for your fine article offering us key dimensions
of the serious challenges facing men and boys these days.
The question you raise that I am pursuing in my work is:
How do we pull angry young men out of the basement?
I would reword the question as:
How do we inspire young men to WANT to come out of the basement?
Well, first we have to figure out:
Why are they are down there?
and
What don't they have
that they need to have
in order to come out?
The best insights I have found on these questions
are conveyed during a Chris Williamson program:
Why do therapists not understand male depression?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyWlp6sTv0
He interviews an excellent therapist whose perspective
on why young men are in the basement
and what they need to come out
is confirmed by nearly all of the 1525 comments
left on the site by unhappy young men
who are stunned to finally hear someone who understands them.
I learned more from this interview and these young men's responses to it
than from all my coursework in graduate school.
The letters I write on my Solutions substack channel the insights I gained.
Thank you again for your valuable writing on this vital topic, Jim.
I hope these insights on male depression will contribute to your work.
Deborah
Thanks Dr Hall. I see we have something in common. We both watch Modern Wisdom.
Chris Williamson is a remarkable young man.
Indeed!
I failed to thank you for your insight. Please accept my apology.
One thing: This is a condensed look at larger, more sweeping issues. I limit my Substack submissions to under 2,000 words. There's a sweet spot somewhere around there.
Also, your work with young men is appreciated.
Jim, I felt thanked and well received already so no apology is needed!
You and I share a deep commitment to reaching and encouraging men and boys.
We could talk for days! I am so glad we have found each other's writing. I look forward to learning from you.
Admittedly I haven’t yet watched the YouTube link you provided, but my knee jerk response to, “How do we get men to come out of the basement?“ is: remove all the electronics. Then they won’t have a reason to stay down there.
10/10 on this excellent post. Thank you Jim.
I am the mother of two adult sons. I have thought about the things you wrote here a great deal. You are right on all accounts, our culture seems to think it's either/or - advocating for male rights means women don't get a fair shake which is not true. It's the age-old case of the pendulum swinging too far. Our school system (at least in Canada) is highly geared toward a style of learning that does not suit many boys. That's just a start as you said in your piece.
Thank you, Donna. This piece really is a condensed look at a highly complex issue -- a set of issues really -- with many substrates. But the gist is this ... it is not a zero sum game. Uplifting one sex does not denegrate the other. The goal is, as Richard Reeves says, human flourishing.
I have two adult sons, too. They are polar opposites in personality, but both are highly successful. They lost their older brother three years ago to depression/anxiety and addiction. That's why creating this piece was so personal. I'm glad it had an impact on you, and appreciate that you've shared your thoughts here.
I am so sorry for your heartbreaking loss Jim.